(Note: This started as a tangent in the Tired of Killing article, but for organizations’ sake, I’m splitting it into its own article.)
I’m a fan of Puzzle Pirates, and I’ve not been shy of that. I’m also looking forward to Gatheryn, which looks like a fun riff on Steampunk themes. Interestingly, it’s also going to be a bit of a minigame suite. This has caused a bit of miffed kerfluffling here and there among those who were hoping for a more “traditional” (read: DIKU level loot grind) MMO design.
On the one hand, I’m sympathetic to that notion. Steampunk is fertile ground for gaming, but is poorly represented in the MMO genre. Wizard 101 has a great little steampunk “world”, NeoSteam takes a magical tack on the theme, and even WoW has steampunkish elements. It’s just… there’s no “hardcore” (heavy Victorian steam-driven) steampunk themed game out there. That seems like a curious oversight to me, and I definitely think there’s a call for such a game in the market.
At the same time, I’m very, very tired of the DIKU loot lust model, built with combat as its backbone. And there’s where we come to the title; the combat minigame.
As far as I’m concerned, combat in these games is little more than a highly specialized minigame. MMO combat, just by the nature of the beast (internet connection, time>skill) isn’t nearly as involved as what we see in the God of War games, Kingdom Hearts or Prince of Persia. It can’t be. It’s been distilled to an autoattack/special attack veneer on top of the prototypical RPG “dice roll” combat resolution engine. Modern MMOs have polished it to a nice sheen, but as pure combat gaming, it’s just not in the same class as Dante in Devil May Cry or that scary dude in Mark of Kri.
So, when I see people complaining about the minigame nature of Gatheryn or Puzzle Pirates (or even Stargate Worlds with its Archeologist class hacking and research minigames) while extolling the virtues of WoW or the like, I can’t help but see a little irony. (And no, Saylah, you’re not the only one in this boat; many people are dismissing Gatheryn for the more social, minigaming focus.)
To be fair, reskinning Bejeweled and jamming it into a large multiplayer lobby and calling it an MMO isn’t all that fulfilling, either. If that’s all Gatheryn has to offer, it will indeed be unfulfilling… but at the same time, people DO play PopCap games or MSN games for hours, and giving them a persistent world where that indulgence can mean character progress beyond a high score leaderboard or Kongregate trophies might just be a winning formula. It won’t appeal to the WoW crowd or the Darkfall denizens, but that was never the goal anyway.
Puzzle Pirates does well by having a series of minigames that are a bit more involved than the Flash-based PopCap fare. For one, their games tend to have a bit more depth than those venerable gems. Even Sailing, a Dr. Mario riff, has target platforms that change the dynamic of the game for the better, and Bilging is more than a mere Bejeweled clone, since you can make swaps that wouldn’t immediately cause a match, and it changes the gameplay significantly.
Beyond that, though, these minigames are integrated into the world. Minigames on board ships contribute directly to the function of the ship, and the player at the helm winds up playing their own minigame that is a sort of metagame of balancing the crew’s efforts (working with people, for you who love sociality in games) while attending to their own duties. Out of combat, captains have a Navigation minigame (unlike any other match three game I’ve played, and great for it) that multiplies Sailing efforts and can indirectly modify combat frequency, and in combat, the Battle Navigation (BNav) minigame incorporates a new subset of players who run the Gunning minigame, as well as an isometric tactical board game where the “deadly dance” of intership combat is played out, either to sink, engage crew-to-crew, or dodge until escape is enabled.
Once crews board their opponent, a round of Swordfighting or Rumbling (fisticuffs) ensues, which is a multiplayer Puzzle Fighter variant or Puzzle Bobble variant. The simple innovations of sword strikes in SF or dual shooters and two directions of attack in Rumble mean they are more than their progenitors, and the multiplayer dynamics make for yet another layer of skills to learn and employ efficiently.
You can not succeed in Puzzle Pirates by relying on autoattack and a “shot rotation“.
Beyond that, there is a complex player-driven economy, where commodities are foraged up (with another minigame) and shuffled into a fairly complex market, where all but the most simple of goods are crafted via a suite of crafting minigames. These aren’t interconnected like the shipboard games, but the economy as a whole is built on the back of players doing the crafting labor (playing minigames) to make items available.
As a result, the game world is very much under the influence of player actions. If players don’t step up to the plate and Distill up some Rum or Blacksmith up some cannonballs, other players can’t go out and sail the high seas looking for combat. If the combat-heavy players don’t hit enough of the spawned enemies, that primary currency fountain dries up, and the crafters don’t have anyone to sell stuff to.
This fairly extensive economy is fairly simple in that it demonstrates the interplay and symbiosis between the crafters and the combatants. Each type of player (or a player who just likes both and meanders around) can do what they like, and find ways to contribute to the game as a whole, their fellow players, and have fun while still earning a bit of coin for their effort.
We see rudimentary aspects of this in WoW and the like, but crafting there isn’t so much a minigame as a metagame pursuit of ingredients and then sitting AFK while your avatar puts things together.
And maybe that’s the point. Ixobelle wrote a while back about crafting interfaces, and the notion that crafting itself should be an active part of the MMO. In other terms, a minigame.
Getting players of all types involved in the game world is part of what I’d like to see in my ideal MMO. Giving them minigames is one way to do that, as it allows for greater involvement and player skill. The combat minigame is certainly fun for some, but if it’s the only real way for players to get involved and display even a modicum of player skill, the game will naturally be limited.
Of course, at the same time, a game that demands skill and involvement from its players will also be limited, since not everyone wants to deal with actually playing all the time; they like that you can go AFK for a while and still get things done. I’ve felt this myself at times.
Even so, I can’t help but feel more involved when I play Puzzle Pirates, and I feel that I’m actually playing more than I am just existing when I go about doing things in the world. You can certainly just exist in PP as well, say by walking around on the islands or building up and furnishing your dream home, but actually playing the game, as opposed to playing WoW, is more fulfilling for me, as it asks more of me.
WoW certainly abstracts the combat minigame a bit, integrating it into the world and spatial concepts, so it’s not a completely shallow thing. No, it’s a fairly highly polished minigame in the suite that is the WoW MMO as a whole. As I wrote earlier, though, it’s just not all that satisfying in the long run, and having a suite of other minigames to round out the world and the interaction therein would seem to be a good thing, at least in my experience. It increases involvement and emotional investment in the game world, and makes for more time playing and keeping things fresh, thanks to a whole suite of things to do, rather than just a fairly binary choice of “kill stuff” or AFK craft stuff.
As always, I’m not talking about excising the combat, merely adding other things on top of it. Providing more choices and more ways to play is part of what I aim to do around here, after all.
[...] a fair bit around here, though, there’s a problem. Most MMOs are built almost completely on the combat minigame. (Most RPGs and action games are, too, so it’s not something that we only see in MMOs.) [...]
One of my favorite of the earlier SSI D&D games was Hillsfar, which was pretty much what Gatheryn seems to be — an adventure world where you are at times presented with a mini game when you try to do something.
Horse riding, target shooting, arena combat, lock picking, all were mini games.
So, yeah, I’m not minding a MMO set in a fairly unique setting where I don’t have to worry about bumping my level fromm 20 to 21 with just 59 more to go.
Aye, I’m quite looking forward to Gatheryn.
You just reminded me of Betrayal at Krondor, another game with lockpicking and other assorted puzzleish minigames. They make for a nice change of pace, and can be fun in their own right. Even the Final Fantasy games (at least the PS generation and beyond) had minigames in them, and were mostly received well.
I do sympathize with those who would like a more “mainstream” steampunk MMO, though. I just don’t particularly care for more of the same DIKU stuff, myself. *shrug*
The Victorian era would be a bad setting for a combat focused MMO, considering all the oppressed peoples you would have to be killing. Games that focus strictly on killing have always seemed to me to be a little psychotic. While those that focus on killing other people, sociopathic.
It would be nice to have a game with less killing.
Hmm… what about a Steampunk “machine vs. man” thing where the bulk of combat is against tinkerbots and such? I know, it’s still combat, but does abstracting it to where you’re just destroying crazy machines vs. killing people do much? I tend to think it would change the tenor of the game…
…but overreliance on combat is still on the psychotic edge. *shrug*
Interesting thoughts, Tipa, thanks!
Combat done right, and probably also able to be adapted to MMOs, basically what CONAN wanted to be and failed hard:
Mount & Blade. Awesome use of physics and direct weapon control.
I think it could also be used to encourage finding non-violent solutions: Getting hurt weakens the player, with less hitpoints for the next battle and so on, it takes time to cure the wounds.
Basically, it would make people find other, more creative ways to deal with mobs or find diplomatic solutions.
I mean the level of combat we experience in games is incredible, let people make think about fighting like they would in their real life. This would also include that killing hundreds of rats does not give you stronger muscles or more intelligence or something like that.
You can have people at the heart of the machines, like some crazy mad scientist who’s using steam powered robots to invade places, etc. So there’s the familiarity of the flesh behind the cold, war-mongering machines *shrugs*
I LOVED Betrayal at Krondor. Loved it. Wish they made more. One of my favorite all time games. I remember being sad when I loaded it up on a newer machine at the time and I couldn’t run it because it went too fast.
Wiqd: try DOSBox. I’ve got Betrayal at Krondor running at proper speed on my current gaming rig
One of my all time favourite games.
Although Tesh, I remember it being fairly mini-game free. There was the combat, there was the going around figuring out what you have to do, and… that’s about it. For example, lockpicking depended entirely on chance and whatever skill level at lockpicking you’d obtained.
Anyway, just to offer a dissenting opinion… Non-combat mini-games are of appeal for 2 possible reasons:
1) “Fluff” value, i.e. non-gameplay related. Make a bunch of cutesy stuff, get the Sims crowd into it
2) Gameplay related. Looking for ways to improve on the combat. This to me is a symptom that combat should be re-designed, not that a bunch of other systems should be added. Like, it’s not like I sit down and play Mario 3 and think, gee, I really wish I could create my own custom fireflower. That’s because the ‘combat’ gameplay is tight.
I recommend you to play King’s Bounty: The Legend. It has a story, some puzzle minigames (only a few Tesh, not more, sorry.
) and it is… just awesome.
It’s on the list.
It has been ever since Wolfshead mentioned it a while back. It’s somewhere around Mount & Blade on the list. Now, to make time and get them on sale…
Melf, I seem to remember puzzle boxes in Krondor… maybe I’m mixing it up with another game. It’s been a while.
Regarding your #2, I totally agree that adding other systems isn’t something to do if the goal is fixing combat. If combat is lame, fix it, definitely. I’m saying that combat is a minigame of its own, and should be treated as merely one reason why people are playing your game. Other people may want to play other games, so giving them things to do beside combat isn’t about fixing combat, it’s about fixing the *overall game*.
Some players just won’t want to be playing the combat minigame most or even some of the time. Having a full suite of alternatives, complete with alternate progression metrics (or the ability to earn XP and coin with any activity), would go a long way to making an MMO more inclusive. That’s the goal of Gatheryn, Puzzle Pirates, and Free Realms, and I think it’s smart design.
Wizard 101 has minigames, but they don’t really integrate as much into the overall game, so it’s a bit of a different beastie. Still, the point is to offer options other than just combat.
http://www.taleworlds.com/
Mount & Blade can be bought and downloaded online.
You can also download and try the game for free;
- the first 6 levels are free to play, then you are asked to register.
It takes some time to get used to swinging the sword, and also some time to get some basic skill points (~100) in your weapon of choice. Do not start as a bowman, bows are very hard to train.
http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Mount%26Blade/Table_of_Contents
About character creation. You do not really need to read it. This is the beauty of Mount & Blade. You have to train riding, fighting and strategy yourself. No kind of Wiki and good advice saves you from that!
Even with platemail, warhorse and training in all kind of weapons, it is ultimately you who fights and decides, not your stats.
Ahh yes the puzzle boxes, with riddles that you had to guess the answer of. They were cool. I spent a long time on some of them, and because I’m an obsessive completionist a few times I was reduced to trying every single combination until it would open ^^
I don’t think they’d work well in an MMO due to wikipedia etc, but yeah.
“Other people may want to play other games”
That’s kind of my point. Crafting always seems to work out not very well in MMO’s… maybe it would be better to make a puzzle/mini-game style thing all of its own (which is what the examples you gave did, didn’t they? Or is there combat *and* puzzle mini-games in PuzzleQuest?)
I remember kludging my way through some of those riddles as well… and they still didn’t even make sense after I got the right answer.
I don’t think a “AAA” MMO has really done crafting as well as it could. Crafting always seems like an afterthought, or at least a second tier system. Puzzle Pirates does it very well, but they are still fairly small, and not the typical DIKU grind, so it’s a bit different from most MMOs.
Puzzle Quest does indeed have non-combat minigames. Each asks for a different set of skills, even though they use the same board, the same “gravity” rules, and only minor mechanical twists. Puzzle Pirates, on the other hand, has unique minigames for each activity.
Both systems work, but the point is that each minigame was carefully built to be a part of a greater whole, but be fun and skill-testing in its own right. WoW’s crafting is rather… bland. EQ2 apparently has some good crafting, as does ROM, so it’s not all doom and gloom, but even in those games, crafting isn’t nearly as tightly integrated into progression or the whole game experience as it could be.
King’s Bounty: The Armored Princess. Watch it in HD! The hair color of the princess depends on her class.
P.S.: It has at least 5 different puzzles, beside the hex-map combat. (… puzzles are a good lure to catch some “Tesh”, hehe)