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	<title>Comments on: Bringing a Gun to a Sword Fight</title>
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	<link>http://tishtoshtesh.wordpress.com/2011/12/28/bringing-a-gun-to-a-sword-fight/</link>
	<description>Rambling, rumbling, rumination</description>
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		<title>By: Capn John</title>
		<link>http://tishtoshtesh.wordpress.com/2011/12/28/bringing-a-gun-to-a-sword-fight/#comment-5997</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Capn John]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jan 2012 16:41:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tishtoshtesh.wordpress.com/?p=4092#comment-5997</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I thought Games Workshop&#039;s tabletop game Necromunda did a fair job with gunfights. Most characters had just one Hit Point, so if your characters took a hit there was a good chance they were killed. However, if you made the saving throw they weren&#039;t wounded, per se, because it&#039;s hard to be wounded when you only have a single Hit Point. Instead the Hit became a Near-Miss and that character was subsequently pinned down during their next turn. It&#039;s a little harder to do this in the real-time environment of an MMO.

While a lot of the FPS games do a good job of staying true to the one shot, one kill principle, it&#039;s also possible to take several less-than-fatal hits, continue fighting, and eliminate your foe with a single, well-placed head shot.

Which brings me to Golden Eye, the original N64 version, not the Wii game. I liked that targets reacted differently in Golden Eye depending on where they were hit. I may be misremembering, but characters shot in the butt would leap and grab their wounded derriere, characters hit in the leg would leap &amp; hop around, and characters hit in the head would die instantly, usually. I hated the elite forces in Goldeneye who could not only take multiple hits to the head but could accurately return fire while doing so. I considered this especially cheap because when you were on the receiving end of a head shot both your rate of fire and accuracy were negatively affected.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought Games Workshop&#8217;s tabletop game Necromunda did a fair job with gunfights. Most characters had just one Hit Point, so if your characters took a hit there was a good chance they were killed. However, if you made the saving throw they weren&#8217;t wounded, per se, because it&#8217;s hard to be wounded when you only have a single Hit Point. Instead the Hit became a Near-Miss and that character was subsequently pinned down during their next turn. It&#8217;s a little harder to do this in the real-time environment of an MMO.</p>
<p>While a lot of the FPS games do a good job of staying true to the one shot, one kill principle, it&#8217;s also possible to take several less-than-fatal hits, continue fighting, and eliminate your foe with a single, well-placed head shot.</p>
<p>Which brings me to Golden Eye, the original N64 version, not the Wii game. I liked that targets reacted differently in Golden Eye depending on where they were hit. I may be misremembering, but characters shot in the butt would leap and grab their wounded derriere, characters hit in the leg would leap &amp; hop around, and characters hit in the head would die instantly, usually. I hated the elite forces in Goldeneye who could not only take multiple hits to the head but could accurately return fire while doing so. I considered this especially cheap because when you were on the receiving end of a head shot both your rate of fire and accuracy were negatively affected.</p>
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		<title>By: rowan</title>
		<link>http://tishtoshtesh.wordpress.com/2011/12/28/bringing-a-gun-to-a-sword-fight/#comment-5978</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[rowan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jan 2012 14:48:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tishtoshtesh.wordpress.com/?p=4092#comment-5978</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It looks like SWTOR does something similar to WAR, with HP and Damage normalized in the Warzones. The higher level players simply have more abilities. I didn&#039;t know about open world PvP, having not experienced it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It looks like SWTOR does something similar to WAR, with HP and Damage normalized in the Warzones. The higher level players simply have more abilities. I didn&#8217;t know about open world PvP, having not experienced it.</p>
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		<title>By: Callan S.</title>
		<link>http://tishtoshtesh.wordpress.com/2011/12/28/bringing-a-gun-to-a-sword-fight/#comment-5977</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Callan S.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jan 2012 03:53:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tishtoshtesh.wordpress.com/?p=4092#comment-5977</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think having an hours cooldown on how often your sent back to the graveyard on PVP loss might help (inside the hour, maybe your character does the beg animation ala duel loss).

In the end, was the whole thing supposed to be much like the idea in D&amp;D where you might meet an ancient dragon anywhere. Here, you can&#039;t do that in PVE, because...stuff. But in PVP terms you can run into an ancient dragon.

Maybe have a an option you can toggle, with either full world PVP (and some sort of bonuses based on time spent in PVP territory, not just on beating the other guy, because as noted that&#039;s not going to happen in low/high level mashups). OR you can toggle over to some mechanism which scales you to within 3 levels of the opponent, but then the only way you get bonuses is by winning.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think having an hours cooldown on how often your sent back to the graveyard on PVP loss might help (inside the hour, maybe your character does the beg animation ala duel loss).</p>
<p>In the end, was the whole thing supposed to be much like the idea in D&amp;D where you might meet an ancient dragon anywhere. Here, you can&#8217;t do that in PVE, because&#8230;stuff. But in PVP terms you can run into an ancient dragon.</p>
<p>Maybe have a an option you can toggle, with either full world PVP (and some sort of bonuses based on time spent in PVP territory, not just on beating the other guy, because as noted that&#8217;s not going to happen in low/high level mashups). OR you can toggle over to some mechanism which scales you to within 3 levels of the opponent, but then the only way you get bonuses is by winning.</p>
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		<title>By: Leah</title>
		<link>http://tishtoshtesh.wordpress.com/2011/12/28/bringing-a-gun-to-a-sword-fight/#comment-5972</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Leah]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Dec 2011 01:39:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tishtoshtesh.wordpress.com/?p=4092#comment-5972</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Warhammer does it pretty well IMO.

1.  if high enough level character goes into lower level zone?  they are turned into a chicken and while they retain their hitpoints, they cannot attack anything, cannot fight back, cannot even heal themselves.

2. in pvp brackets  - lower level characters brought up in power to the highest level characters.  they might not have the same number of spells, but what they have hits hard enough to kill high levels.  My SO, who pvps in Warhammer almost exclusively (meaning that&#039;s what he levels through as well) routinely holds his own and often wins against opponents that are, in WoW terms - skull difficulty for him.

there&#039;s still room for improvement of course, but I&#039;d say its a pretty good start.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Warhammer does it pretty well IMO.</p>
<p>1.  if high enough level character goes into lower level zone?  they are turned into a chicken and while they retain their hitpoints, they cannot attack anything, cannot fight back, cannot even heal themselves.</p>
<p>2. in pvp brackets  &#8211; lower level characters brought up in power to the highest level characters.  they might not have the same number of spells, but what they have hits hard enough to kill high levels.  My SO, who pvps in Warhammer almost exclusively (meaning that&#8217;s what he levels through as well) routinely holds his own and often wins against opponents that are, in WoW terms &#8211; skull difficulty for him.</p>
<p>there&#8217;s still room for improvement of course, but I&#8217;d say its a pretty good start.</p>
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		<title>By: Klepsacovic</title>
		<link>http://tishtoshtesh.wordpress.com/2011/12/28/bringing-a-gun-to-a-sword-fight/#comment-5969</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Klepsacovic]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Dec 2011 15:01:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tishtoshtesh.wordpress.com/?p=4092#comment-5969</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d start by equalizing the attack tables.  Make it so that, excluding talents, everyone has the same crit, hit, dodge, etc.  That won&#039;t address the damage difference, but it will mean that a lowbie can still use many of their escape tricks, and could still be handy in groups.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d start by equalizing the attack tables.  Make it so that, excluding talents, everyone has the same crit, hit, dodge, etc.  That won&#8217;t address the damage difference, but it will mean that a lowbie can still use many of their escape tricks, and could still be handy in groups.</p>
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		<title>By: Syl</title>
		<link>http://tishtoshtesh.wordpress.com/2011/12/28/bringing-a-gun-to-a-sword-fight/#comment-5967</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Syl]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Dec 2011 12:24:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tishtoshtesh.wordpress.com/?p=4092#comment-5967</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s a fair point about open world PvP; and for BGs too, I have been in favor of removing PvP-gear / making all PvP gear equal for everyone for a long time. even same level encounters should be about tactics and performance, not gear. as you said, there are still plenty of &#039;differences&#039; as is, you have players with different specs, you have teams with different class setups etc. enough to leverage on.

As for open world...I still think UO did it pretty well with the PK-system. add to that the skill-based progression, rather than having levels and even fix classes: differences between character power become smaller. a higher skilled character has better spells and utilities, but in essence not more &#039;life&#039; - and there are still ways the rookie can try and evade/counter attack. at the very least, the rookie should have a chance to flee in one piece. everything else is unbalanced.
Another approach might be an MMO where character powers rely heavily on gear, rather than level. assuming gear is available fairly quickly, and level only really adds extra abilities.

The aspect of player frustration is rather important too; it&#039;s what I hear MMO players say about FPS often, where you get one-shotted easily and for a long time as a rookie. it&#039;s pure frustration because the learning curve is so steep. it&#039;s definitely more agreeable to learn PvP in an environment where you get a chance to actually play before you get pwned, easier to learn something that way. :) it&#039;s about finding the right balance here imo (I&#039;ve also been advocating more fast-paced battle à la FPS on my blog lately, so I don&#039;t wanna contradict myself too much lol!), or else install different server modes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a fair point about open world PvP; and for BGs too, I have been in favor of removing PvP-gear / making all PvP gear equal for everyone for a long time. even same level encounters should be about tactics and performance, not gear. as you said, there are still plenty of &#8216;differences&#8217; as is, you have players with different specs, you have teams with different class setups etc. enough to leverage on.</p>
<p>As for open world&#8230;I still think UO did it pretty well with the PK-system. add to that the skill-based progression, rather than having levels and even fix classes: differences between character power become smaller. a higher skilled character has better spells and utilities, but in essence not more &#8216;life&#8217; &#8211; and there are still ways the rookie can try and evade/counter attack. at the very least, the rookie should have a chance to flee in one piece. everything else is unbalanced.<br />
Another approach might be an MMO where character powers rely heavily on gear, rather than level. assuming gear is available fairly quickly, and level only really adds extra abilities.</p>
<p>The aspect of player frustration is rather important too; it&#8217;s what I hear MMO players say about FPS often, where you get one-shotted easily and for a long time as a rookie. it&#8217;s pure frustration because the learning curve is so steep. it&#8217;s definitely more agreeable to learn PvP in an environment where you get a chance to actually play before you get pwned, easier to learn something that way. <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  it&#8217;s about finding the right balance here imo (I&#8217;ve also been advocating more fast-paced battle à la FPS on my blog lately, so I don&#8217;t wanna contradict myself too much lol!), or else install different server modes.</p>
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		<title>By: Carson</title>
		<link>http://tishtoshtesh.wordpress.com/2011/12/28/bringing-a-gun-to-a-sword-fight/#comment-5966</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Carson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Dec 2011 07:14:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tishtoshtesh.wordpress.com/?p=4092#comment-5966</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[PvP and games of character advancement don&#039;t mix.

Leave the PvP for PvP games, like shooters and MOBAs, and keep MMORPGs about PvE, imho.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PvP and games of character advancement don&#8217;t mix.</p>
<p>Leave the PvP for PvP games, like shooters and MOBAs, and keep MMORPGs about PvE, imho.</p>
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		<title>By: rowan</title>
		<link>http://tishtoshtesh.wordpress.com/2011/12/28/bringing-a-gun-to-a-sword-fight/#comment-5965</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[rowan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Dec 2011 03:16:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tishtoshtesh.wordpress.com/?p=4092#comment-5965</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[All I can say is: Hear! Hear!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All I can say is: Hear! Hear!</p>
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		<title>By: The Friendly Necromancer</title>
		<link>http://tishtoshtesh.wordpress.com/2011/12/28/bringing-a-gun-to-a-sword-fight/#comment-5964</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Friendly Necromancer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Dec 2011 00:54:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tishtoshtesh.wordpress.com/?p=4092#comment-5964</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Guild Wars PvP totally got it right here.  If you want, you can roll a level 20 pvp toon out of the box.  Rare skills to make the perfect build, however, are out in the open world.

WoW has an even bigger problem with gear, don&#039;t they?  I mean, an army of raid-gear purples always destroyed an army of open-world blues back in the day when I was playing WoW pvp.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guild Wars PvP totally got it right here.  If you want, you can roll a level 20 pvp toon out of the box.  Rare skills to make the perfect build, however, are out in the open world.</p>
<p>WoW has an even bigger problem with gear, don&#8217;t they?  I mean, an army of raid-gear purples always destroyed an army of open-world blues back in the day when I was playing WoW pvp.</p>
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		<title>By: Rohan</title>
		<link>http://tishtoshtesh.wordpress.com/2011/12/28/bringing-a-gun-to-a-sword-fight/#comment-5963</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rohan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Dec 2011 00:52:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tishtoshtesh.wordpress.com/?p=4092#comment-5963</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The problem with all these systems is that it&#039;s really hard to keep them from being exploited. For example, people used to use lower level characters as &quot;bait&quot; in the lower zones. Lower level enemy player attacks lower level character, and gets jumped by a hidden high level player who is &quot;defending&quot; the lower character.

Or imagine a system with your revenge gimmick. Instead of high-levels ganking, you&#039;d have a swarm of lower-level players attacking the higher level one. If the high-level beat them off, they&#039;d come back more powerful.

Even if you restricted PvP to fights between equal level players, waiting for a player to be at half health or ambushing with surprise or larger numbers is a time-honored tactic in the real world. Is that fair? How would you prevent it?

In my opinion, the PvE/PvP servers are the best options, or the least-worst. You have to consent to PvP, and as long as there is consent, fairness is a moot point.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with all these systems is that it&#8217;s really hard to keep them from being exploited. For example, people used to use lower level characters as &#8220;bait&#8221; in the lower zones. Lower level enemy player attacks lower level character, and gets jumped by a hidden high level player who is &#8220;defending&#8221; the lower character.</p>
<p>Or imagine a system with your revenge gimmick. Instead of high-levels ganking, you&#8217;d have a swarm of lower-level players attacking the higher level one. If the high-level beat them off, they&#8217;d come back more powerful.</p>
<p>Even if you restricted PvP to fights between equal level players, waiting for a player to be at half health or ambushing with surprise or larger numbers is a time-honored tactic in the real world. Is that fair? How would you prevent it?</p>
<p>In my opinion, the PvE/PvP servers are the best options, or the least-worst. You have to consent to PvP, and as long as there is consent, fairness is a moot point.</p>
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